Transcript: This is Climate: Sustainable Cities - The Washington Post

Transcript: This is Climate: Sustainable Cities - The Washington Post

MS. BAIRD: Hello and welcome. I’m Kathy Baird. I’m the chief communications officer here at The Post, and I’m the general manager of Washington Post Live. It is great to have all of you here with us today in person.

We are joined on our stage today by several individuals who are instrumental voices in an integrated approach to build more sustainable cities. First, my colleague, Leigh Ann Caldwell, will speak with Maryland's lieutenant governor, Aruna Miller, about leading sustainability and what Maryland is doing to build more sustainable cities.

Next, Frances Stead Sellers will be joined by Donnel Baird, the CEO of BlocPower; Erica Cochran Hameen, the director of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at Carnegie Mellon's School of Architecture; and Harriet Tregoning, the director of the New Urban Mobility alliance at the World Resources Institute for a conversation about building green.

And finally, Juliet Eilperin will sit down with Brenda Mallory, the chair of the White House Council on Environmental Quality, to talk about environmental justice. Before we get started, I would like to thank today's sponsor for this event, 3M. We want to thank you again for coming, and after this short video, my colleague, Leigh Ann Caldwell, will take the stage. Thank you.

[Applause]

[Video plays]

MS. CALDWELL: Good morning. Welcome to Washington Post Live. I'm Leigh Ann Caldwell, an anchor here at Washington Post Live, also co-author of The Early 202 newsletter.

Today in our latest climate series, we are speaking with Maryland's lieutenant governor, Aruna Miller. You got a great introduction from her in that video just now. Welcome.

MS. MILLER: Thank you.

MS. CALDWELL: So, Lieutenant Governor, you and Governor Moore have decided that climate is going to be a focus of your administration. You have a very specific background in engineering and transportation. So you could say perhaps this is--your career has led you to this moment. But why prioritize it so much?

MS. MILLER: Well, Leigh Ann, we all know that climate change is an existential threat, right? And I can tell you my training in transportation engineering has taught me one thing, that there are no problems, only solutions.

Now, climate change is not just a problem; it's an existential threat. And on this, we also believe that there's extraordinary opportunity for us to build a world that is cleaner, greener, and healthier for all of us, and there's opportunity for groundbreaking innovation that comes with that to create a green technology economy. And we're at the revolution, the tipping edge of this, and Maryland wants to be a leader in this.

MS. CALDWELL: So, tell me what your plan.

MS. MILLER: Oh, we have lots of plans.

[Laughter]

MS. MILLER: I can tell you from day one when Governor Moore and I joined together as part of the Moore-Miller administration, the first thing we did was to join the U.S. Climate Policy Act; and then, two, we went ahead and adopted California's Clean Cars II, which is essentially to make sure that manufacturers of automobiles are going to increasingly have electric vehicles available for customers, to the point where by 2035, everything should be electric vehicles.

MS. CALDWELL: So your goal, as you just referenced, is 100 percent clean energy by 2035. Electric vehicles is a key part of that.

MS. MILLER: Mm-hmm.

MS. CALDWELL: Can you talk about the infrastructure issues that are necessary to support a clean vehicle economy, charging stations, grids, et cetera?

MS. MILLER: Sure. That's going to be a big component of it--right?--as we move forward. First off, not only are we proposing clean energy by 2035, but we also have another initiative, which is that 60 percent of greenhouse gas emissions are going to be reduced by 2031, with the goal that, a hundred percent, it will be reduced to net-zero emissions by 2045. And so all of that means is we're going to have a lot of electric vehicles out on the roadways. So, we do have a plan in place, and I believe the Biden-Harris administration has made the strongest investment in green economy, and that's going to give us the funding and the resources to be able to implement the electric charging stations throughout this stage.

We actually have a bill in right now called the "Clean Transportation Energy Act." We know that transportation is one of the biggest contributors of greenhouse gas emissions, and of that, it's the medium- and heavy-duty trucks that play the biggest role in that. While they only represent 4 percent of the vehicles in transportation, they represent 25 percent of the, you know, greenhouse gas emissions that are released. So we have a bill that will address that by incentivizing companies and local governments to move toward having medium and heavy vehicle trucks that are electric.

MS. CALDWELL: Define heavy- and medium-sized trucks. Is that SUVs? Is that semitrucks? Is it everything in between the two?

MS. MILLER: So light-duty trucks are more like the SUVs, right? The medium and heavy are ones that typically organizations and industries use, like the ones that you see, you know, 18-wheelers and so forth that are going across the country.

And believe it or not, we in Maryland actually have a company, Volvo, that produces electric medium- and heavy-duty vehicles. So this bill that I mentioned, it's going to incentivize them to be able to continue to produce these vehicles and encourage others to purchase them, because they are a bit more costly than the conventional medium- and heavy-duty trucks.

MS. CALDWELL: So the goals sound great.

MS. MILLER: Yeah.

MS. CALDWELL: Specifically, how do you get there? Is it mandating what consumers purchase? Is it tax incentives? Is it--how do you meet these goals?

MS. MILLER: So, it's all of it, right?

MS. CALDWELL: Okay.

MS. MILLER: So, we start off by--first off, by encouraging businesses to be able to take advantage of the incentive. Again, this bill that I'm talking about, it's to be able to encourage them to purchase vehicles and also set up the infrastructure. So, we would actually give them money to be able to--the delta difference between buying a conventional medium truck, a heavy-duty truck versus electric truck. There's a big difference in price. So, 75 percent of it, the state of--government would give back to local businesses who do this. Same thing with individuals that are purchasing electric vehicles. We also have a lot of, you know, tax incentives at the federal level and the state level. And I think the more you see electric vehicles, the infrastructure is going to come along with that because the public is going to demand that and so on, and, you know, I think that's how we kind of approach it. You incentivize. You also pass laws that regulate how much you're allowed to put out as far as greenhouse gas emissions. And I think the combination of that working collectively with the federal, state, and local governments can make it happen--and the private sector.

MS. CALDWELL: Also, you have a plan to expand solar panels, solar use, renewables. Talk about that a little bit.

MS. MILLER: Sure. So we actually have a plan called Community Solar that encourages industry leaders to put solar panels around throughout the state of Maryland. And equity is a big issue for us. Everything that the Moore-Miller administration is going to do is through the lens of equity. So, this particular bill had started off as just a pilot program, but it is going to become permanent, and we're looking forward to that. And as part of that permanency is that 40 percent of the capacity that is going to be generated by solar panels has to be targeted toward low income and Black and brown communities that have often been disinvested and disadvantaged over the years. So, we're going to focus on that.

MS. CALDWELL: And is there--will the electric grid support these changes in Maryland?

MS. MILLER: Yes, absolutely. Look, Maryland has an aggressive, bold plan for climate change and to create an electric grid, and we want to be a leader in this industry. Again, climate change is not something to sit back and pause and think about for a while. We have to address the issues related to that and the solutions related to that as aggressively, boldly, and intentionally as possible.

MS. CALDWELL: What are the challenges going to be?

MS. MILLER: There's lots of challenges. Look, as a society, we get used to living a certain way and we don't want to change, but change is needed because if we don't have that, we're not going to have a planet left anymore, right? And I think there are folks out there that want to deny that this is happening, but science and data and everything shows it is happening, and it's going to get worse if we don't do something about it.

But again, I think there's extraordinary opportunity to create new jobs in this sector, including, you know, wind power. In Baltimore, we have a facility called Sparrows Point where it used to have a big steel mill there, and in the 20th century, early part of it, it was like the biggest steel mill in the world. But that has left, and it's no longer a steel mill. So, you know what we're doing? We are actually working together with Tradepoint Atlantic and US Wind to be able to generate wind power there.

Maryland has over 3,100 miles of shoreline. We love it because, look, that creates a lot of recreational advantages to our residents and tourists, but it also makes us very vulnerable to sea level rises. So, we want to be able to have this renewable energy, and so this particular area where Tradepoint Atlantic is going to be leasing a hundred acres of wind farm to US Wind, so we can generate wind power. And so our goal is pretty aggressive. We hope to generate 8.5 gigawatts of power that's going to power, you know, 3 million households. And again, this is a job creator. This is taking a sector that once was left behind after the steel mill industry left and re-creating it for the 21st century green economy.

MS. CALDWELL: Offshore wind can sometimes be very controversial. Does your administration--do you guys support that?

MS. MILLER: We do support that. We are--so we are a hundred percent behind this.

MS. CALDWELL: Mm-hmm.

MS. MILLER: Yes.

MS. CALDWELL: Great. I want to talk to you, ask you, big picture, about sustainability. You know, a hundred percent electrability of cars is fantastic, but what about city planning? What about public transportation? There's already a lot of congestion on roads. Is that an element of what you guys are going to do moving forward and what you're thinking about?

MS. MILLER: Absolutely, Leigh Ann. Look, to be able to address climate change, it's got to be collective. It's got to be collaborative. It's got to be the whole ecosystem we have to look at. And what you brought up, you know, transit-oriented development, is a focus that the Moore-Miller administration is going to be looking into. We need to make sure that we invest in public transit. Public transit is an environmental issue. It's an equity issue. It's how we are able to move people to get to jobs.

Businesses are not going to come to the state of Maryland if they can't get their employees to be able to, you know, get out of the traffic gridlock. So public transit is a great way to address that. So, we are going to be focusing on that. We have lots of projects already; the Purple Line, which is a light rail that we hope to complete here shortly. We're going to be picking up the Red Line where it was left off from the previous administration and lots of other projects completely, you know, targeted around transit.

MS. CALDWELL: So I want to also ask about sustainability in a broader political context as well. There was the election for Chicago mayor yesterday. Of course, that focused a lot on crime and education. But there was a sustainability component. So do you think that Maryland--do you think that this is also good politics moving forward, and is Maryland positioning itself in a place to socialize these issues to make sure that voters, residents, are comfortable with how the state is moving forward?

MS. MILLER: Absolutely. Look, I think, you know, climate change, honestly, and sustainability, it's a bipartisan issue. We--in fact, many of the bills that we propose in the General Assembly on this have been bipartisan, and I think people understand on both sides of the aisle and no matter where they come that this is something that we need to move toward. And a lot of it has to do with messaging. You have to show the advantages of what it's like to stop what you're used to doing and do something differently that is going to benefit not just you but the whole state, nation, and the globe.

MS. CALDWELL: Does the administration--they passed the Inflation Reduction Act last year.

MS. MILLER: Mm-hmm.

MS. CALDWELL: $400 billion investment in climate change. What components of that are coming to Maryland? I know they're just in the process of starting the implementation of that. So what benefits is Maryland--are you hoping to receive from that, and is there any frustration so far in the process of benefiting?

MS. MILLER: Well, there's certainly a lot of benefits. Look, Maryland, first off, is a backyard to the nation's capital. So the Biden-Harris administration has been super supportive of us, and we're going to take every advantage we can of the Inflation Reduction Act to be able to get funding, to bring it over to Maryland. And the advantage of that is the president doesn't have to travel too far to come and show, hey, here's what our--you know, my particular bill did. Here's--in fact, he's been over in Maryland already three times, showcasing some of the projects, and one of them is the Frederick Douglass Tunnel-Bridge that we are going to be investing over $4 billion, and the president was there to talk about it.

So, Maryland offers a lot. We're like a microcosm of the entire nation, and again, right in the backyard of the Biden-Harrison administration, so it makes it very easy for them to come over.

And I know Governor Moore and myself, we are very much in support of this administration, and we invite them over as often as we can, and we look forward to working together collectively with them.

MS. CALDWELL: Great. And just to get back to your background--

MS. MILLER: Yeah.

MS. CALDWELL: --what are you personally, and what is the state doing to ensure, you know, there's a lot of students, a lot of new people coming up in STEM and STEAM programs, especially women?

MS. MILLER: I love that question. So, I can tell you as part of the lieutenant governor's office, one of the areas that I am going to be focusing on is STEM education, particularly to get more women and people of color, to really diversify this field, because I think we're really missing out when we don't bring these two elements into this field.

And if you take a look at the past several decades, our--it's almost 50 to 80 percent of the growth in our GDP has been as a result of two different industries, science and technology. So, there is great potential here because it's these industries that are going to be able to come up with the solutions of the 21st century. So, we need to get--make sure that everybody is at the table for that. The more diverse thought that you can bring to the solutions that are necessary, the bigger advantage that we're going to have.

So, I'm putting a lot of focus on making sure that we continue to promote STEM education, not just when they get to college but start them very early from K through 12 and then move on to college and then make sure that--you know, that we get them into the fields.

You don't necessarily have to go to college in order to get into STEM programs. There's so much where you can get a two-year degree or even six months training, and you're in these fields making high salaries. So not only do you get that, but you also get this incredible opportunity of diverse thoughts and ideas to come up with the 21st century solutions.

MS. CALDWELL: Great. Aruna Miller, lieutenant governor of Maryland, thank you so much.

MS. MILLER: Thank you for having me, Leigh Ann. Thank you.

[Applause]

MS. CALDWELL: And stay with us. Our program will continue in a few moments.

[Video plays]

MS. KOCH: Good morning. I'm Kathleen Koch, a longtime Washington correspondent. Did you realize that by 2015, it is projected that more than two-thirds of the world population will live in urban areas? So, we can't fight climate change without tackling it there. Well, here this morning to talk with me about how sustainable innovation can be woven into the very fabric of our urban infrastructure and systems is Gayle Schueller. She is senior vice president and chief sustainability officer at 3M. Welcome, Gayle.

MS. SCHUELLER: Thank you very much, Kathleen. It's an honor to join you here today for this great conversation and all of you who have come in to join us with The Washington Post event.

MS. KOCH: So, Gayle, why are cities the best places to deploy and scale climate innovation?

MS. SCHUELLER: Well, as you've mentioned, populations today, more than 50 percent of the populations today live in cities, and approximately 70 percent of our greenhouse gas footprint around the world comes from cities.

Plus, if you want to implement something, you go to where the energy is being used. You go to where things are open to change and where you can make an impact by doing one thing and having it be close by.

There's some groups like the C40. The leadership of almost a hundred cities have come together on different ways they can address challenges, and 3M is excited to help contribute there as well.

MS. KOCH: So, what new solutions and approaches are out there that are ready right now to be implemented in cities?

MS. SCHUELLER: Yeah. You know, there's a lot going on, and as a scientist, this is something that really excites me. The previous speaker was talking about renewable energy and transportation, and those are very real and relevant things. I mean, if you pay attention on these things, it's exciting.

I had my first--this was last weekend. I pulled up to an intersection in Austin, Texas, and sitting at that intersection were two Teslas and two Rivians at an intersection, all electric vehicles at a stop sign.

MS. KOCH: [Laughs]

MS. SCHUELLER: When did we think that would happen? You know, I mean, the world is changing now. And it's not just those bigger things. You know, at 3M, we tend to be more materials and focused on details. So, we have things like glass bubbles that help with fuel efficiency, lightweighting vehicles. We have things like--

MS. KOCH: You have cool roof technology--that's really interesting--and smog-reducing roof technology.

MS. SCHUELLER: Yeah. You know, we have roofing granules that maybe many of us have taken for granted on the roofs of our homes that. You know, we've had them since the 1930s and '40s. They protect your roof well. They look good. But now they can pull smog out of the air.

We also have cooling roofing granules and a combination of both, where you can reflect the heat and reduce the effect of urban heat islands. So little things that you may not even think about can be brought into our world in subtle ways, and the more that we do of those things to help advance, it creates some opportunities. And we want to make a difference in this space.

MS. KOCH: We were talking backstage. 3M has a commitment about that, right?

MS. SCHUELLER: Yeah. So, we have--you know, we're really based on science and innovating and coming up with new ideas, really helping change the world through small increments, and big ones when we can. But every new product we launch must have a sustainability value commitment. So the idea is that takes it above and beyond what we offer today or what's offered in the market today to help be either more circular from a use of materials perspective or address things like climate technology.

MS. KOCH: So what areas of climate innovation do we most need to invest in right away in order to meet the needs that are coming in the future?

MS. SCHUELLER: Yeah. You know, I think there's so many things that we can be doing. I think what--you start where, if you will, the heat is. So the idea of the electric grid, we know how to do it. Let's move now. Transportation, another big piece of where we see footprint. So that's--those are both critical areas.

Others are in the heating and cooling areas, very big contributors to carbon emissions around the world beyond the transportation and electricity. So, we're looking at hydrogen economy, you know, how do we bring forward greener hydrogen for fuels.

MS. KOCH: But heating and cooling, I wanted to say you also have this passive radiative cooling film.

MS. SCHUELLER: Yes.

MS. KOCH: I'm sorry. I'm geeking out here. I did too much research, but how it can cool systems that are in existence without having to create massive change to them.

MS. SCHUELLER: Yeah. We're working on this. This is one of the areas that we're doing experiments now in different--or pilot activities, different parts of the world, in Arizona with large retail operations where they have large roof areas that we can help with, helping to just have the effects of the same kind of--the same kinds of optical effects that have been used to transform the energy efficiency of electronic devices, whether they're handheld or large screens, they can really help in combining them in different ways, different technologies to help have that passive radiative cooling on large surfaces.

MS. KOCH: Yeah, that's fascinating. I saw one store, that it reduced their energy consumption like 10 to 20 percent.

MS. SCHUELLER: Exactly. And it's purely passive. So, it's a really exciting technology.

MS. KOCH: So why is it important, though, that all--that there be this science-based approach when you're developing solutions to climate change? You're an engineer, right?

MS. SCHUELLER: Yeah. I'm a physicist first, so--and I have my Ph.D. in engineering.

I think science just has to be at the root of what we do. Often when I talk about climate change or sustainability, in general, I think there's three words to keep in mind. One is science, one is acting with urgency, so science, urgency, and collaboration. And I know we'll talk more about collaboration in a little bit.

But with the science, the first piece is understanding what's happening with the science. And we know there's been a lot of controversy, but I think it's becoming more and more clear, you know, what's happening there.

But then we have to be really mindful about the solutions that we bring forward related to science as well, because it's--sometimes it can be too easy to jump on a solution that seems like a good idea, but when you actually do the life-cycle analysis or really look at it at a purely scientific perspective, you realize, oh, there are some unintended consequences that we really hadn't planned for here. So, let's not jump so quickly. And I'm not point fingers at any particular thing out there right now, but there are some things out there that seem like a good idea, but when you actually pull the science back, you know, how many times do you have to reuse a reusable bag to be equivalent to a paper bag, for example, you know, some of those things. We just really have to pay attention to the science.

MS. KOCH: Well, I think it's interesting that you do the research there. When it comes to companies in their spending on R&D, it's like--what is it? Pharmaceuticals, it's like 25 percent. Your average corporation is 3 percent, and 3M is like double that, 6, 7 percent.

MS. SCHUELLER: Yeah.

MS. KOCH: So, you really do science.

MS. SCHUELLER: We take it very seriously, and we have a whole range of science. We work closely with our customers. That's the critical piece, is understanding where they're going, both the things that they tell us, but also the things that we see coming ahead of what they're actually asking for, what we call the "unarticulated needs," and try to pull them together across 51 different technology platforms.

MS. KOCH: So, you have your own crystal ball? [Laughs]

MS. SCHUELLER: Well, I'd like to think that, but we really--we see things--and one of the things that's really fun that I've had the opportunity to enjoy in my career is taking ideas that come from one area. For example, I'll just pick on glass beads that were originally developed to have highly reflective street signs. So those street signs that you see that are extra reflective when you're coming down with headlights at night, they developed for that, then later were used for dental amalgams to have teeth--to have amalgams that look like teeth cure in a relatively comfortable way and do that. But now we're using those glass beads and glass bubbles for technologies that help with semiconductor attachment, making electronic devices smaller and smaller, circular story there, and making fuel efficiency improved in vehicles. So really how those technologies come together in different ways is a really exciting piece of what we work on with our customers.

MS. KOCH: We wanted to talk about collaboration, and I do think if we are going to create lasting change in this area, we all have to collaborate and work together. So, what can the public and the private sectors as well as individual citizens do to drive forward this climate innovation that we need so much right now?

MS. SCHUELLER: Yeah. Well, I think the first piece is really about paying attention and thinking about and looking for the solutions, because there's so much out there already. The previous speakers were talking about Maryland, but Maryland--far beyond Maryland, things that are happening and going on. So, it's very exciting to see what's happening.

I've mentioned the work we do with customers. That's our first piece of collaboration always. But when you bring together--I've had the opportunity to participate in the last few UN climate conferences. When you bring together government officials and various NGOs who are working to do the right things from the public sector, your community sector, with corporations, that's really the critical sweet spot of how you can really enact change.

Corporations have roles with innovations, with driving business growth. Governments have roles with policies and legislation, and NGOs really help bring forward ideas and thoughts for the future from citizens. You know, we are very active with groups from the UNFCCC for climate change to the Water Resilience Coalition, Ellen MacArthur Foundation.

And a really interesting example recently has been, as the UN is bringing forward a global treaty proposal on plastics--this is kind of the plastics equivalent of the Paris Accord--when we saw the first draft of it, we realized, oh, there are some really unintended consequences here. If you completely eliminate plastic in the world, there's a lot of our day-to-day lives, whether it's electronics or vehicles or things that rely on that and actually make them better in ways that are really good, but there are plastics we want to eliminate, and we certainly want to eliminate plastic waste. So how do we make sure that we are bringing in the science, bringing in all the different perspectives to get that legislation and the goals in the right place? It's a really critical piece.

MS. KOCH: How important is it educating the public? Because when--on our first call, you and I were discussing that. I think so much of a--so many of us want to do more to help address climate change, but we just don't know what will make the greatest impact. How important is that, that education piece and the involvement piece?

MS. SCHUELLER: Yeah. Well, it is really important. I think there's subtle differences, you know, that you can make that are relatively painless. One of the biggest ones--and everyone will have an opportunity to do this today--is what you choose to eat. I mean, choosing a plant-based diet has a dramatic effect compared to almost any other choice that you make.

Now, I'm not--

MS. KOCH: That's hard.

MS. SCHUELLER: I know, I know.

MS. KOCH: A lot of meat eaters.

MS. SCHUELLER: And I think it's a matter of steps, you know, one step at a time and making an incremental move. You know, if everybody does that and makes choices, you know, how many times can you choose to--it's a gorgeous day here in D.C. You know, maybe ride a bicycle or walk to where you're going instead of, you know, jumping in the Uber automatically. But all of those--

MS. KOCH: So that can make more difference than, say, driving a Prius versus a big SUV?

MS. SCHUELLER: Well, I told you the story.

MS. KOCH: Yes, you did.

[Laughter]

MS. SCHUELLER: One of my first conferences that I went to when I got into the sustainability space that fascinated me involved a talk that talked about the carbon footprint, comparing a vegetarian driving a Humvee--we're not talking about the new electric one--original Humvee versus an omnivore/carnivore driving a Prius. And the footprint is very different, and much lower if you're the vegetarian, even if you choose to drive a Humvee.

Now, I don't know any vegetarians who drive Humvees, but they may exist.

[Laughter]

MS. SCHUELLER: And I found that fascinating. You know, so that's a choice everybody's making every day, multiple times a day, I'd add.

MS. KOCH: And I know I also try in my own home to--again, try not to use plastic and use more paper products.

MS. SCHUELLER: Yes.

MS. KOCH: I have to geek out again on this new product that you guys have that is paper, this Cushion Lock. It is so cool. It comes in big rolls, and when you pull it out, it looks like a flat piece of paper. You stretch it, and then it pops into this honeycomb, and then you can wrap things in it. And you don't need tape, and you don't eat scissors. And it's not plastic, and it's fully recyclable.

MS. SCHUELLER: And it's made from a hundred percent recycled paper. So, it's--you know, we're really striving to do that. That's a great example of where we're bringing forward those sustainability value commitments.

So, what would it look like entitlement-wise? I think there's been a history, I'll say with 3M, but I would say any company where at the end, you think about, oh, wait, how can we make sure this is more sustainable? How can we look--

MS. KOCH: And that's your job. Everything they do now, right?

MS. SCHUELLER: Right. So, every phase-gate, right at the first idea phase concept, needs to come forward with how we're going to advance it, and that the secret is that you can't pick just one, because things get--things are surprising in science or as you develop things. So, you have to plan for multiple areas.

So, in this case, you know, it had to be a hundred percent recycled content. It had to be a hundred percent recyclable. And then, yeah, they did a great job with it.

MS. KOCH: And they don't just run it by you once it's developed. They say, "Hey, Gayle, what's your vote on this? Thumbs up or thumbs down?" You really--

MS. SCHUELLER: Well, okay. I'm involved, but we have leaders across our organization. It's a wonderful thing that we have leaders within each of our businesses and across our geographies around the world who really are looking out on sustainability. It's their job to help make sure we're bringing that into the portfolio, reinventing as we go, and so it's pretty exciting that we get to do that.

MS. KOCH: Gayle Schueller, senior 3M vice president and chief sustainability officer, thank you so much for a fascinating discussion.

MS. SCHUELLER: Thank you so much, Kathleen. Thank you.

MS. KOCH: And I'll toss it back to The Washington Post

[Applause]

[Video plays]

MS. SELLERS: Welcome back. To those of you just joining us online, I'm Frances Stead Sellers, a senior writer here at The Washington Post. Joining me on stage now are Erica Cochran Hameen, who is the director of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion at Carnegie Mellon's School of Architecture. Next to her is Donnel Baird, who is the CEO of BlocPower; and then Harriet Tregoning, who is the director of the New Urban Mobility alliance at the World Resources Institute. A very warm welcome to all three of you.

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: Thank you.

MS. TREGONING: Thank you.

MR. BAIRD: Thank you.

MS. SELLERS: Erica, I would love to start with you.

[Applause]

[Laughter]

MS. SELLERS: Okay. Let's go.

[Applause]

MS. SELLERS: Erica, I'd love to start with you. We've talked so much about sustainability in terms of cities with electronic vehicles and things, but tell us about buildings and whether the narrative has changed and we're beginning to think of that as a priority in terms of city development.

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: You know, so I think one of the things we have to think about, especially when it comes to building, is where we spend our time. Especially, pre-pandemic, we spent 90 percent of our time indoors. Post-pandemic and during the pandemic, that has increased to 95 percent. So if you think about it, you're spending 90 percent of your time in a structure, in a building, and so shouldn't that building be energy efficient? Shouldn't that building be a place where you're healthy, where you have great air quality and lighting and acoustical quality? So, I think the narrative of sustainability has--had to change because that's where we spend--our buildings, and it's also responsible for 40 percent of our carbon emissions coming from buildings.

MS. SELLERS: So, Donnel, that takes me to a question for you about older structures and retrofitting them. I know Erica lives in Pittsburgh. We've been talking about Brooklyn, and this is very much part of the work you do. What are the challenges there when buildings, commercial buildings have a 60-year life span? Right?

MR. BAIRD: Yeah. I mean, in Brooklyn, where we were talking, I mean, many of the buildings are over a hundred years old, right? We have gone into basements and found furnaces that used to burn coal--

MS. SELLERS: Uh-huh.

MR. BAIRD: --and were upgraded and retrofitted to burn oil.

[Laughter]

MR. BAIRD: And the furnace is 60, 70, 80 years old. And so the question is, how do you go into a building like that and redesign it and retrofit it so that it's smarter, greener, healthier, safer, and more affordable?

MS. SELLERS: Right.

MR. BAIRD: One of the things that I think is really important is that more and more data and research is coming out that burning fossil fuels in our home is just a terribly unhealthy idea. There's nitrogen dioxide. There's benzene. There's methane that gets leaked from our ovens and gas stoves in our kitchens, even when they're not on. And so as we start to study air quality in our homes more and more, it just turns out that having fossil fuels in your home is terrible for the health of your kids and your family. And that's one of the most important opportunities and priorities, I think, is getting families to focus on the fact that we can now electrify and make buildings cleaner and greener and healthy.

MS. SELLERS: Harriet, earlier in your career, you were D.C.'s urban planner, I think, and here we are sitting in a city with many, many older buildings, historic structures that can't be changed. What are the peculiar challenges to managing a place like this where there's so much history in our architecture?

MS. TREGONING: Well, I think the structure of the buildings--I mean, one of the greatest things when we talk about sustainability is the embodied energy in the existing buildings, and so the notion that you would tear them down in order to be energy efficient, I think, is a little bit antithetical to the notion of sustainability. And in many cases, the construction quality, the materials, the finishes, everything was better before we had discounted cash flow--right?--where we measured the return in seven years. You know, are we going to get--be able to get paid back? We didn't used to build our buildings that way. So I think--

MS. SELLERS: Explain that just a little bit more.

MS. TREGONING: So right now, if you are going to make a business decision about whether or not to invest in something, you're interested in your payback period.

MS. SELLERS: Mm-hmm.

MS. TREGONING: And for a lot of types of decisions, that payback period, given the interest rate that you would look at for the time value of money might be 7 to 10 years. So, most people wouldn't make an investment, most businesses wouldn't make an investment if they couldn't recoup their money in that time period. And for some, it's even a shorter time period.

That's not how cities used to be built. That's not how people who built buildings used to think about it, and cities shouldn't think that way now. You know, we care about our cities not just for 10 years, not just for 20 years, but for centuries. So, we should be making long-term investments. That being said, the existing buildings often have very superior performance to any buildings that we would put up if we do the kind of retrofitting that Donnel is talking about, which is to electrify the systems and to do things like add solar and to do things as well, I would say, outside the building.

You know, another big thing about the city like Washington is that we have a lot of short trips. A lot of our trips can be--are very nearby. So, we don't have to get in our cars to take a lot of those trips. So, I think that's another very important thing that cities can and must be doing to fight climate change, to make it safe, and to make it convenient to be able to use your feet, transit, or a bicycle, even an electric bicycle, to get where you're going.

MS. SELLERS: So, a quick follow-up. Is there a city in this country that you would hold up as the gold standard for sustainability in this--

MS. TREGONING: You're in it.

MS. SELLERS: We're in it.

[Laughter]

MS. SELLERS: We're in it. Okay.

MS. TREGONING: So, congratulations.

MR. BAIRD: Congratulations to you.

[Laughter]

MS. SELLERS: But now I'm going to follow up with both Erica and Donnel, because Erica was singing the praises of Pittsburgh earlier on. Yeah, quickly, where would you say? Are we in it?

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: I'd say D.C. is a great place, but there's a lot of other wonderful places. So, I'm just going to use Pittsburgh as an example because that's where I live, and it's a--

[Laughter]

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: It's a city that's reinvented itself. So, I'm going to talk about Pittsburgh because of that reinvention. Pittsburgh used to be a two-shirt city. The air was so dirty, men would go to work with one shirt, and then at lunchtime, they literally had to change that shirt because it was no longer white. And then the reason we have these like secondary entrances is—to the house was because the men would come in and have to change their clothes before they come upstairs.

So, one of the things that when you look at the city of Pittsburgh is it's reinvented itself and said, you know what, air quality is going to be super important. How can we have our buildings energy efficient? How can we have--you know, do more things with electricity? Our electricity company is even looking at making a lot of their electricity using clean power sources. And so that's a great model for globally on how to reinvent yourself, how to turn yourself from a city where you couldn't even get through the day--

MS. SELLERS: Right.

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: --with a clean shirt into a place where it's known globally for science, technology, better air quality, better education, and all because of infrastructure changes that start with buildings.

MR. BAIRD: I mean, we--I did not know the thing about the T-shirts. That's gross and very cool that you cleaned that up.

[Laughter]

MS. SELLERS: As somebody who has a background in London, you know--

MR. BAIRD: Geez. Look, as you said, I mean, you know, we got 125 million buildings in America. It's 30 to 40 percent of emissions, depending on who's doing the math.

But what's interesting is we have all of the hardware and all the software and all the finance that we need to solve this problem by 2030.

MS. SELLERS: Right.

MR. BAIRD: And so we as Americans could say we are going to reduce 30 percent of our emissions by greening all the buildings, and we're going to reduce our healthcare costs, which is 20 percent of our economy by greening all the buildings, and we're going to create a bunch of jobs that can't be outsourced. Like we can do that now, and it's actionable. So, what's most interesting to me are the cities that are trying to do that. I think D.C. has amazing policies and plans in place. In New York--we're New Yorkers--we have Local Law 97 that forces reductions from existing buildings, and buildings in New York produce 70 percent of our emissions.

But there's several cities across the U.S. that are starting to mandate the decarbonization, the full decarbonization of 100 percent of their buildings. So, Ithaca, New York, was the first. Menlo Park is the second. San Jose is the third. And by law, by 2030, every building in those cities must be green. It must be decarbonized. So, I think that's an amazing commitment--

MS. SELLERS: Erica--

MR. BAIRD: --and we'd like to see that implemented in more and more cities across the country.

MS. SELLERS: --talk to me about affordability. though, because the people who are most vulnerable are often to the downsides--

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: Absolutely. And so sometimes when people think energy efficiency, the first thing that comes to their mind is I'm going to put solar panels on my house.

MS. SELLERS: Right.

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: But for me, one of the things I think about is equity first. The people who are in the most need of energy efficiency, in particular, are African Americans, Hispanic Americans, and American Indians. We just tend to pay significantly more of our income trying to heat and cool our homes.

You know, I'll talk about Pittsburgh again, but as a Black person in Pittsburgh, we have the second highest energy burden or energy poverty rate in the country. Tennessee, you know, also has a city with it. But that just means that people of low income or people of different means are literally spending more of their income, a higher percentage of their income, trying to heat and cool their homes. And then you factor in climate change where things are getting hotter. How do you cool? How do you stay comfortable?

It's a health issue as well because in your northern climates where it's cold, people are doing things like using an oven. I know that happens a lot in New York and other northern places. They open the oven to try to stay warm. That's going to affect your air quality. That's going to affect how you're breathing.

MS. SELLERS: Right.

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: And so if we want to talk about sustainability, the people who are going to be most impacted are going to be people who are low-income people. Like those are the people who really need it most.

MS. SELLERS: Donnel, take that a step further. How far are we from saying that green doesn't mean expensive? I mean, it's very hard to unlock those two concepts sometimes in some people's heads.

MR. BAIRD: I mean, I think the way that we fund innovation in America--let's take Tesla for an example. You know, Elon and the people who founded Tesla were very clear. We're going to start with, you know, 100-, $200,000 vehicle for affluent environmentalist consumers. Then we're going to take the money from that Roadster, and then we're going to do like a $50,000 to $90,000 vehicle. And then we're going to take the money from that second car, and then we're going to do a mass market car that's more affordable at $30,000, which many families still can't afford, right? And so that--the way that we fund innovation in America is kind of that model, and I think as folks who are concerned about equity, the question is how do you flip that on its head? And can you come up with an affordable mass market solution first and then apply that across sustainability services and products? And that's what our company is focused on. We, as part of our corporate charter, have said we will prioritize serving low-income communities first and making sure that the vast benefits of energy efficiency and sustainability are prioritized for distribution in those communities. And if at all works, what we're doing at BlocPower will allow us to bring sustainability to mass market consumers, which allows us to get to scale much more quickly.

MS. SELLERS: Harriet, you had a quick answer when I asked you which city was the gold standard. Internationally, where do things stand? I was in Spain recently learning about solar energy cooperatives were funding--you know, taking power away from the big energy companies and funding smaller areas. Where would you look to internationally as a model for--

MS. TREGONING: I mean, I think the members of the European Union are really doing amazing work, and they're doing it across a number of countries. And I think part of it is their willingness to regulate and their willingness to use price--right?--to send a price signal about better and worse choices to make, you know, because I think the European Union is also, more so than our economy and our policies, focused on a common good, you know, what is going to be better for everybody.

MS. SELLERS: Mm-hmm.

MS. TREGONING: And so, yeah, those are some big differences, you know, between our two approaches.

That being said, this administration is doing more than any U.S. administration has ever done to invest in modernizing our economy and lowering our greenhouse gas emissions and in focusing on low- and moderate-income households and the places that have been harmed or entirely passed over in previous--by previous investments, especially in infrastructure.

So I think, you know, this is our moment in this country to show that we can do it differently and that we can do it right. And one of the organizations I also work with--I'm on the board of ACEEE--they're doing very much what Donnel is talking about in a project called R2E2, Residential Retrofits for Energy Efficiency, starting with low- and moderate-income households, and with funding from philanthropy and the Department of Energy, because just as Donnel was saying, if you do this at scale, you'd produce an industry that would rival new home construction.

And it could be everywhere, and every place is looking to electrify. We just finished a renovation of our home, and I can't tell you how difficult it was to find people who knew how to do this work and how to tell us--you know, advise us on what size, how heavy the electrical needed to be, what--how we should size our HVAC, you know, how much energy we'd need for our--for an electric car charger in the future--

MS. SELLERS: Right.

MS. TREGONING: --all of that. So, I think--I think it's a real growth area and that we can't be investing in it soon enough.

MR. BAIRD: That's a critical point.

MS. SELLERS: Donnell, you had--I was actually going to ask you a question. You had a $25 million investment, I think, in BlocPower recently; is that correct? Talk about the willingness of investors to see sustainability as a profit center going ahead.

MR. BAIRD: Investors, Jesus.

[Laughter]

MR. BAIRD: I think, you know, there's a massive--there's a massive shortage of skilled construction workers and construction firms across America and Europe.

MS. SELLERS: Right.

MR. BAIRD: For all of us to implement the kind of massive interventions in the built environment to reduce emissions, we must make it cool and sexy and interesting and lucrative to--for young people to reenter the trades. And the trades need to be reinvented, but we need skilled electricians, HVAC technicians, and that is a massive part of, you know, what we need to implement the IRA. And as European--Europe starts to duplicate their package, we're going to--they're going to need that as well.

I think, you know, in terms of investment, there's a lot of back and forth on ESG right now. ESG is here to stay. It's risk management. It's not woke capitalism. The best investors and best firms all use it, and we are glad and grateful that venture capital is interested in funding sustainability and climate tech at this time.

However, I've been around long enough. BlocPower has been around for 10 years, and I remember when we couldn't raise a dime because venture capitalists had given up on clean energy. And so after 2008, you know, there's a bunch of venture capital investments that were made from like 2008 to 2012, they lost a bunch of money, and then for almost a decade, they stopped investing in clean energy. And so we as a country and we as like a human race cannot rely on the whims and preferences of short-term investors to help set policy and priorities in climate. Capital markets and early-stage investments have a really significant role, but we need other forms of alternative capital, federal money, state money, community investments, folks in Pittsburgh getting together and saying, "This is what the city of Pittsburgh needs. We don't know if people in Silicon Valley understand that, but we are going to raise our own pool of capital and make the investments in the green infrastructure that we need in our city." And the IRA has lots of provisions that allow for us to do that, and that's one of the most exciting parts of it.

MS. SELLERS: And it brings me to a question for you, Erica--

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: Yeah.

MS. SELLERS: --exactly about what the risks are and the opportunities are for marginalized communities--

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: Mm-hmm.

MS. SELLERS: --to make sure they live in housing that is good for them--

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: Yeah.

MS. SELLERS: --and good for the rest of the world.

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: So, I think, you know, there's a couple of things. One, just thinking about the finances, because there's a lot of--

MS. SELLERS: Right.

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: --how do we find the money, how do we do this. So, I think we have to think about it a couple of ways. One is changing our mindset on how we do investments. It's maybe you pay a tiny bit more to provide that sustainable house or that zero-energy home, which is going to be most beneficial for marginalized and low-income communities, and then think let's think triple bottom-line calculating. First, benefit, how much energy am I going to save over the lifetime of that house, or even just the lifetime of the homeowners or the people who are living there?

Then let's say, what's the second bottom line? What about the health? Right? If you have a child who doesn't have asthma, what's that worth? If you're breathing better and you have less respiratory issues, what is the cost of your health improvements?

And then factor in that third bottom line, which is climate, right? What does it mean? What does it cost us? How much less does it cost if there's less carbon emissions?

MS. SELLERS: Mm-hmm.

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: Then you start to get that payback faster, right? Because people are saying, "What's my payback?" But if you factor in all those three things, you start to see that payback comes really quick. That's going to mean so much to, in particular, marginalized communities because they don't measure in kilowatt hours.

You know, we sit at--and we can talk about kilowatt hours and Btu, and it means a lot to us. But if you are in a marginalized community, you're thinking, how am I going to feed my kids? And to say, you know what, this home means you're going to have an extra $200 in your pocket each month, that money equates to groceries.

So, I think it's changing the narrative on how we finance, but also changing the narrative of the benefits and bringing it to people, into a mechanism that they understand, that means direct something to them, right? If schools are more efficient, guess what? All the money we're spending on electricity and gas, that's enough money for all new computers, all new textbooks, all of that. We spend more on those than we do on like textbooks and computers combined.

MS. SELLERS: You know--

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: So, this is energy savings.

MS. SELLERS: Right.

MR. BAIRD: Mm-hmm.

MS. SELLERS: So just as a last question, a summary question just for the three of you and rather quickly, how optimistic--I'm hearing optimism. I'm hearing long-term concerns--

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: Yeah.

MS. SELLERS: --worries about short-term investment. How optimistic about--are you about where we stand right now? And make it a quick answer, and we'll just go down the line one after the other.

MS. TREGONING: Starting with me?

MS. SELLERS: Yeah.

MS. TREGONING: I'm exceedingly optimistic, but I would--but with caution because there's--this administration has put a lot of money on the table. It could absolutely be used to just lock us in to what we're already doing. I think it's up to us, folks like Donnel, folks like Erica, folks like the Communities First Infrastructure Alliance that we're a part of, to really try to intervene to make sure that this money gets spent to address equity, to address--to address climate change, and to really make people's lives better. And I think that is the--that's the opportunity that's out there, and I'm hopeful, but I'm not complacent.

MS. SELLERS: A quick summary, Donnel?

MR. BAIRD: Well said. I am cautiously optimistic, love and super proud of what President Biden and Vice President Harris have done, love when Microsoft and Goldman Sachs and the other folks who--not only because they invest in my company but because they're leading corporations who are taking on the climate crisis in a serious way. And so that is comforting to see such great leadership at the upper echelon of our economy.

MS. SELLERS: Thank you.

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: I'm extremely optimistic, and I think maybe it's also because I work at a university. So, I'm around young people all the time--

MS. SELLERS: Right.

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: --who are coming in.

MS. SELLERS: Such a great message.

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: And they come in knowing sustainability. We don't have to convince them that it's important. So, I'm super optimistic because I see the generations that are coming after me that are going to be the leaders in construction firms and architects, the future engineers of the world, and they have such amazing ideas, and all they see is opportunity. And I'm looking forward to all of my soon-to-be graduates and my future graduates just taking over the world and solving--

[Laughter]

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: They're going to, and they're already doing it, and they're doing it in a great way.

MS. SELLERS: Right.

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: And in their heart, they want to help.

MS. SELLERS: Right.

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: And so we don't--now the students coming in, we're not teaching them sustainability is important. They come in saying, "It's important. How can we use buildings? How can we use architecture and engineering and design to make change and make the world better?"

MS. SELLERS: That's wonderful to finish on an optimistic note. Harriet, Donnel, Erica, thank you so much for joining us today.

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: Thank you.

[Applause]

MS. SELLERS: And stay with us, my colleague, my great colleague, Juliet Eilperin, will be up here in a second with Brenda Mallory, who is the chair of the Council on Environmental Quality. She'll be up here soon. Thank you all.

DR. COCHRAN HAMEEN: Thank you very much.

MR. BAIRD: Thank you.

[Video plays]

MS. EILPERIN: Good morning. I'm Juliet Eilperin, deputy climate and environment editor here at The Washington Post.

I'm delighted to be joined on stage now by Brenda Mallory, chair of the Council on Environmental Quality at the White House. Chair Mallory, welcome to The Washington Post.

MS. MALLORY: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

MS. EILPERIN: So, people of color are exposed to higher levels of pollution, regardless of what region they live in or their income level, and obviously, this exposure can have hugely damaging impacts, whether you're talking about health--on their heart or lungs. So, what has the Biden administration done so far to counter the impacts of systemic racism?

MS. MALLORY: Yes. Well, first of all, thank you for the question. I think you heard, as the video was playing, that this is a theme in the work that we are doing. One of the reasons that I am like so thrilled to have the opportunity to work for this president and this administration is because environmental justice has been centered in the work that we do all across the board, in the way that it integrates with everything.

And the president started on the campaign trail actually recognizing the importance of this issue and the place that we are in this country and how much work is still needed to address the kind of inequities in our structures and made some commitments to the environmental justice communities and to the public, in general, that we were going to make sure that communities that have historically been underinvested in receive attention, receive the resources, receive the kind of protection that our systems offer. And that's basically what we've been doing since day one.

In the first week, the president issued an executive order, 14008, in which it not only lays out our climate agenda and the approach that we're taking on those issues, but it specifically calls for a focus on environmental justice in ways that bring communities and community voices and lived experiences into the White House, so that we are making sure that that's part of what we are considering when we are looking at policies. It created a White House Interagency Council, which is senior leadership all across the federal government that is focused on making sure that we are addressing environmental justice in each of the agencies. It's where he made the commitment on the Justice40 Initiative where 40 percent of the benefits from climate and clean energy and affordable housing are directed to those disadvantaged communities, and then we have the task to create some tools that make sure that we are identifying disadvantaged communities in a consistent way but also holding ourselves accountable for it. So like a plan was laid out and like I think what we've been going about the work of doing since day one is trying to both implement it within our structures, but more importantly--and I think more--will be more significant for ensuring that there are impacts--is like working across the country in communities and trying to ensure that we are just taking a different view on how we examine environmental issues.

MS. EILPERIN: And let's talk a little about Justice40, which obviously is a seminal pledge that the president made.

MS. MALLORY: Yes.

MS. EILPERIN: So far, how has the Biden administration delivered on that specifically?

MS. MALLORY: Yeah. And so the idea of making sure that each of the agencies is actually, in a conceptual way, thinking about how you direct benefits to those communities that generally do not receive them. So, you know, the Climate and Economic Justice Screening Tool is the--is going to be the base for us identifying what those communities are, and that is basically a mapping tool that was created based on like areas, using factors that show the disadvantage that occurs, like places where there's high flooding, places where there are health impacts, places where there are air impacts, places where they're like subject to legacy pollution. So those are all combined together to create a map, and that map is a basis for us as we are looking at funding that is--that is needed or opportunities to see whether we're in that.

So, for example, we have funding that's been directed to communities in New Mexico for school buses. The school bus--the creation or the use of electric school buses, is obviously a huge way to address kind of pollution and also climate change.

Money that has gone to removal of lead pipes. The president was just in Philadelphia a few weeks ago in which $500 million was given in Philadelphia for the removal of lead pipes, and that's obviously been an issue that the president's been focused on also kind of all across the country with a commitment to remove all lead service lines.

And so those are just two examples of how we're--you know, as we're doing the deployment of some of these resources, that we are trying to make sure that those that need them most receive it.

MS. EILPERIN: And obviously, as you just kind of laid out with those examples, some of the biggest levers that the administration has right now are the Bipartisan Infrastructure act and the Inflation Reduction Act. And can you give a sense of how clearly that money allows you to direct it to some of these communities? Are there other specifics about how those laws are maybe playing out in slightly different ways, or what are the ways that they're, you know, kind of the tip of the spear when it comes to delivering on this promise?

MS. MALLORY: Yeah. I mean, again, so both of those laws, I think, are incredible achievements for the president, are--you know, they are really the anchors on which we're able to do a lot of the things that we had probably talked about historically, and particularly on climate. This is the largest climate investment ever, anywhere. And I think that it--both of those are enabling us to actually deploy funding in ways that we weren't able to, both in grant funding--so like the school buses and the lead pipes that I just described--but also in ways to help communities understand the impacts they're facing.

So, one of the things in--that is in the Inflation Reduction Act is the air monitors. Air Monitors is something that communities have been asking for, for many, many decades, and we were able in this bill to get that. So that's an opportunity.

But it also like helps us to-- like as we're thinking about not only cleaning up areas, but also what is that future development that we're trying to move towards, you know, the president's entire climate agenda, which recognizes the crisis but also sees it as an opportunity--he never talks about climate change without talking about the jobs that are going to be created when we have a new clean economy. And so the Inflation Reduction Act, in particular, has provisions that really create a higher leverage, a higher credit, tax credit for companies and entities that actually invest in disadvantaged communities, that provide training programs, that use people who have been taking advantage of some of these training programs, that--like that make sure that we're actually trying to marry what the opportunities are created so that they end up in the places that are important.

MS. EILPERIN: Right. And part of what you've--obviously, what we've been talking about are whether it's cleaning up traditional forms of pollution or curbing greenhouse gases linked to climate change. So, there's that side of the equation, but there's also the climate impacts that we're experiencing right now and that obviously are going to intensify. And again, what we see in analysis after analysis, including what the Environmental Protection Agency has done, what academics have done, is that you do have low-income communities, communities of color are hardest hit by these impacts. So, in terms of that, what's the administration's strategy for tackling the climate impacts that are affecting--

MS. MALLORY: Yeah. So same, same actual kind of mindset, right? Because again, much data and what we see when we look at these--and just horrendous--I mean, just like watch the weather any week, and this week being a great example, the devastation--and these are people that are being devastated after having just suffered some devastation probably just a year ago or a few weeks ago, and so they haven't quite adjusted to the last situation, and now they're finding themselves in another one. And I think that's a place where it's an example of how you really have to dig into the weeds of the agencies and their approaches to the funding for some of these areas.

And so we have been working on making sure that the standards or the calculations that the agencies do are designed so that they will allow for some of these communities that often have been left out, because of their cost-benefit analysis, to actually benefit. So, we're looking at those details. We're identifying within the--within the criteria that are used to do the funding, like making sure that there is an emphasis on these disadvantaged communities that hasn't been there before.

You'll notice if you look at the availability, notices of availability that go out for these programs, there is an increased presence in talking about how do we help disadvantaged communities under this particular program as part of the criteria for evaluating the program.

MS. EILPERIN: And you mentioned, obviously, the dashboard as one of the key ways you're examining to what extent this--you know, the pledge of Justice40 is being carried out. Do you have either results right now, or is there anything surprising that you've seen about how money is reaching these communities, or are there any other metrics that you're using to kind of hold your feet to the fire on this?

MS. MALLORY: So, I would say that the answer on that is that we are collecting the information on that now.

I think part of the president's original agenda set out the requirement to do a scorecard, and we are working on releasing, probably, the first scorecard in the coming weeks. And the idea of that is to try to create the framework that the agencies understand that they're going to be measured by and what we're going to be looking at in order to show that the commitments that we're making are actually being achieved.

So that's a work in progress right now. I don't think we have metrics to show now, but we do have already examples of impacts that are--you know, dollars that are actually reaching specific communities that are available. So, we know that it is happening, but we want to make sure that it is happening at the scale that is important.

MS. EILPERIN: Yeah. So, let's talk about federal sustainability. Obviously, we're--

MS. MALLORY: Yes.

MS. EILPERIN: --gathered here to talk about sustainability. I want to start first on this question of actually kind of instilling some accountability among the private sector when it comes to federal contractors, which obviously are some of the biggest companies in this country. And one of the proposals that the White House has right now is this idea of requiring federal suppliers that are major companies to align their emissions targets with the Paris Climate Agreement and also disclose both their emissions and the risks that they face from climate change.

Now, we have certainly seen pushback from trade associations, individual corporations, and others arguing that this is kind of too ambitious a climate target to require of private companies. Can you share your thinking on is the--obviously, this isn't finalized--to what extent the White House stands by the proposal, might reevaluate it based on the feedback you're getting so far?

MS. MALLORY: Yeah. So we are in process, and so that process has to play out. And the comments that you're describing are being submitted and so will be considered.

But I guess I would step back and say a couple of things. Number one, the entire sustainability agenda is built on the premise that we have to lead by example, right? So that's what we said when we talked about going back to Paris, right? That's that--you know, our international work. It's important that we are there to lead by example, and that is absolutely true when it comes to the federal government.

We have a footprint, a $650 billion spend footprint. We are the largest employer in the nation. We have the most real estate in the nation, and so these all give us tools that are really important for us to take advantage of. And I think the--there was intentionality in the way that that proposal was structured, right? Not every single contractor or person with a relationship with the government was targeted. It was the highest, you know, companies. It was the companies that are often the ones that are already doing things, and so it might have been pushing them a bit. But it wasn't like it was sort of starting from scratch. And so I think we tried to really figure out like who within our system, who is benefiting substantially from the federal relationship should be the focus of the kind of information and the expectations that we think are important. And so I think that was the mindset behind it, and we'll just have to see how the process plays out, now that we are taking the comments.

But, you know, especially on the point of information, I mean, the idea that there is an expectation that information is provided just can't be problematic, right? I mean, like I actually think that we know that to the extent that we get information, that information is collected, that it impacts the way people think about what they're doing. And so, you know, as a base, I think we have to hold onto that.

MS. EILPERIN: One question on that front, which is that, you know, why do you--clearly, climate risk is something that this administration has also made central to how it's approaching these questions. Why do you think that there is so much resistance to that or that it is hard for major players in our economy or ordinary Americans to grapple with the prospect of accounting for climate risk?

MS. MALLORY: Yeah. I honestly--Juliet, I really don't know, I mean, because it's not as if this information isn't important for their own operations. I mean, again, back to like just look at what we're going through this week all across this country, the ways in which there is disruption occurring in areas because of severe weather impacts that are, you know, so unusual. Just so--I mean, today is beautiful, but it's not supposed to be 80 degrees in April. I mean, there are just so many ways in which the communities are having to deal with the disruptions from these storms. So, any business that's operating within that community also has to be planning for that, has to be thinking about that. And in some ways, the whole idea of having to factor that in, it seems like it should be being done anyway, and to ask that of the people in particular who are benefiting from the federal relationship just seems fair.

MS. EILPERIN: Now, you spoke about leading by example, and obviously, federal building sustainability is something that's important. How do you determine whether the materials that are being used in the significant construction and operation of these buildings are sustainable and to what extent these buildings are meeting an aggressive performance standard?

MS. MALLORY: Yeah. And so that's a place where we have a, you know, Buy Clean Initiative that has a task force of the key agencies across the federal government, in particular, who are purchasing and--purchasing services and goods that are actually relevant to the construction area.

And we already--GSA in particular--GSA and DOD, who both have a pretty large footprint when it comes to the purchase of these kinds of materials, have integrated these requirements into the way that they are, you know, getting services and what the materials, the contract--I mean, the concrete that's being used on some of the projects that are occurring. And so they are creating the mechanisms for the assessment, right? They're making the request and the requirement part of what the--is being submitted to the contractors, and then the checking mechanisms are also being created by them.

MS. EILPERIN: And obviously, there's a ton that your office is doing, you know, using the levers of the executive branch. And obviously, we now face a divided Congress. When you look at all the things that are on your plate on this front and others, how much of it is doable just through the executive branch, or are there some key things where you would need congressional approval that would be really instrumental in kind of advancing some of the goals that you're focused on?

MS. MALLORY: Yeah. I mean, again, I think that the way that the president constructed the agenda, I think, really, you know, creates the ability for the executive branch to do a lot on its own. But the partnership with Congress, when it works well, is an important partnership. I mean, there are clearly things that Congress has the ability to take a step further than, you know, that the--than the president couldn’t do on his own. I mean, the legislation, both then bill and IRA, are examples of things that, well, we needed Congress for that. So, there are places in which that partnership is extremely important.

And I think, you know, this president, even with----even with a divided Congress, has always believed in the institutions of this government and in the institution of Congress and the ability to find a way for a bipartisan arrangement, understanding, and I think he still believes that. He says that. And we are prepared as an administration to work with Congress, to the extent that Congress is able to work with us.

Now, we obviously have things that are important to us as priorities, as principles in terms of what the administration is.

MS. EILPERIN: Are there like a couple of things? Like would you put permitting reform at the top of the list, or something else? If you had to say like one or, you know, two things that Congress--it would really be, you know, instrumental for Congress to act on?

MS. MALLORY: Yeah. I think--I think we need Congress to act on transmission permitting. I think that's something that, you know, was a reason that the president actually supported the legislation that Schumer and Manchin--Senators Schumer and Manchin--had put out because that transmission permitting is so important, and having a structure that allows that.

MS. EILPERIN: CEQ has faced staffing shortages over time. Do you have the staff to achieve what you need, or are there challenges that you face as a result?

MS. MALLORY: Yeah. I mean, we could always use more staff. So, there's no question about that. But I think, again, we--one of the things that the Inflation Reduction Act allowed, which has not been done historically, is to provide funding specifically for permitting and specifically to CEQ, both for permitting assistance and for environmental justice, and so we are taking advantage of that in our staffing. But, you know, yes, there's a lot of great work to be done, and, you know, having more people to help do it is always a good thing.

MS. EILPERIN: One quick thing--and the last thing because we're running out of time--if you had to say one thing that you're doing right now that you think would last into future administrations, regardless of whether there's a Republican or Democrat in office, what's one way you're changing the way CEQ approaches environmental policy that will be sustained over time?

MS. MALLORY: Yeah. I mean, I think the one way that I would say that we are changing things is like, if you pick the environmental justice area as an example, I think the work that we are doing not only to embed environmental justice as an ethos within the federal government but also kind of across America is really going to be important. I think you see it when you talk to companies. You see it when you talk to communities. People are trying to understand how they can make sure they're doing their part, and I think that change in and of itself is going to be extremely valuable.

MS. EILPERIN: Chair Mallory, we're out of time. Thank you so much for joining us here today.

MS. MALLORY: Absolutely. Thank you and great to be here.

[Applause]

MS. EILPERIN: And thanks to all of you for joining us both here in person and online. For more information about our upcoming programs and to register, go to WashingtonPostLive.com.

I'm Juliet Eilperin. Thanks again and have a great day.

[Applause]

[End recorded session]